A Dinner with Drug Reps
Over the years I’ve written all sorts of blog posts on dishonesty, and because the new book release, I want to repost an updated version of them to accompany. For the next few days I’ll post one every other day. Enjoy!
Janet Schwartz of Tulane University and I once spent an evening with a few former pharmaceutical reps, men who used to be in the business of selling a wide range of drugs to treat all kinds of diseases and conditions, from fibromyalgia to depression to restless leg syndrome. As drug representatives, they would go from doctor to doctor attempting to convince physicians to prescribe their company’s drugs. How? Typically they would start by passing on informative pamphlets and giving out products like pens, clipboards, and notepads advertising their drugs.
But we knew there was more to the story, so we tried the pharmaceutical reps at their own game – we took them to a nice dinner and kept the wine flowing. Once we got them a bit sauced, they were ready to tell all. And what we learned was fairly shocking.
Picture these guys: attractive, charming young men. Not the kind of guys who would have trouble finding a date. One of them told us a story about how he was once trying to persuade a reluctant female physician to attend a seminar about a medication he was promoting. After a bit of persuading, she finally decided to attend – but only after he agreed to escort her to a ballroom dancing class. This, according to our new friends, was a typical kind of quid pro quo where the rep does a personal favor for the doctor and the doctor promotes the rep’s product in return.
Another common practice was to bring meals to the doctor’s office (one of the perks of being a receptionist), and one office even required alternating days of steak or lobster for lunch in exchange for access to the (well-fed) doctors.
Even more shocking was that when the reps were in the physician’s office, they were sometimes called into the examination room (as “experts”) to inform the patients about the drug directly. And the device reps experienced a surprisingly intimate level of involvement in patient care, often selling medical devices in the operating room, while the surgery was going on.
Aside from learning about their profession, we also realized how well these pharmaceutical reps understood classic psychological persuasion strategies, and how they employed them in a sophisticated and intuitive manner. One clever tactic they used was to hire physicians to give a brief lecture to other physicians about a drug. Now, they really didn’t care what the audience took from the lecture, but were actually interested in what the act of giving the lecture did to the speaker himself. They found that after giving a short lecture about the benefits of a drug, the speaker would begin to believe his own words and soon prescribe accordingly. Psychological studies show that people quickly start believing whatever comes out of their own mouths, even when they are paid to say it. This is a clear case of cognitive dissonance at play; doctors reason that if they are touting this drug, they must believe in it themselves — and so their beliefs alter to align with their speech.
The reps employed other tricks like switching on and off various accents, personalities, political affiliations, and basically served as persuasion machines (they may have mentioned the word “chameleon”). They were great at putting doctors at ease, relating to them as similar working people who go deep-sea fishing or play baseball together. They used these shared experiences to develop an understanding that the physicians write prescriptions for their “friends.” The physicians, of course, did not think that they were compromising their values when they were out shooting the breeze with the drug reps.
I was recently at a conference for the American Medical Association, where I gave a lecture about conflicts of interest. Interestingly, the lecture just before me was by a representative from a device company that created brain implants. In his lecture he made the case for selling devices in the operating room because doctors could need help learning how to use the device. And in order to fight conflicts of interest, the company no longer takes physicians to Hawaii for their annual conferences — and instead they have their conference in Wisconsin.
So, what do we do? First, we must realize that doctors have conflicts of interest. With this understanding we need to place barriers that prevent this kind of schmoozing, and to keep reps from undue access to physicians or patients. They, of course, have the right to send doctors information, but their interactions should stop there.
I have one more idea: What if we only allow people to be drug reps if they are over 75 and unattractive? Not only would these individuals have more personal experience with the healthcare system, it also could reduce conflicts of interest and open up job opportunities to an undervalued population.

The Honest Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to Everyone - Especially Ourselves

I don’t know why people find this surprising or even shocking.
Reps are the lowest form of life on the planet and I don’t care if we’re told how essential they are to a company’s survival (they are) the way they go about it is enough to make anyone’s stomach heave.
Con men go to jail and yet reps can cause as much damage and heartache as con men.
So what to do? Outlaw all forms of inducements that are not directly connected with the product. In other words a sales rep talks about the benefits and features of a product and that is all. A really clever rep that understands the difference between benefits and features can make a good living without resorting to underhand tactics.
Mr. Wood –
Your assertion that “reps are the lowest form of life on the planet” demonstrates ignorance, intolerance, and arrogance.
Granted, there are both good and bad pharmaceutical representatives, just as there are both good and bad writers, politicians, teachers, physicians, judges, lawyers, and marketing experts.
However, it is ignorant to state that all of any of these professions are bad.
Likewise, it is intolerant to paint any group of individuals with such a wide brush, and arrogant to judge others in such a narrow-minded way.
You sound as though you’ve suffered personal injury at the hands of an unethical drug representative. If that is the case, then I am sorry that happened.
Whether you were hurt or not, I can think of no sound excuse for painting an entire profession with such a broad and negative brush.
I may have responded to the original post so I apologise if I am repeating myself.
I have worked in sales for many years and trained sales people in many industries including medical and pharma.
If you put a bunch of reps round a table (a naturally competitive environment) and add alcohol to reduce inhibitions what you will get is “war stories”. In my experience sales people in these situations exaggerate their abilities and overestimate their influence. You cannot believe everything that you hear at such gatherings often they are just entertaining each other with tales of derring do.
I also know many doctors (and have interviewed many “buyers” in the medical profession. I have yet to meet one who doesn’t claim to see straight through obvious sales tactics. If you get a bunch of doctors drunk and ask them about sales people they will say that they enjoy the golf days, the eye candy and the gifts but that they make their decisions based on hard medical evidence. Many will boast about the free stuff that they managed to get out of the drug companies without ever buying a single thing.They will usually conclude that the whole thing is a big game,everyone knows the rules and it’s just they way things get done.
Most reps and doctors that I have dealt with agree on one thing, that is that the gold old days of freebies and junkets are over (probably because there was little proof that they worked as a means of securing new business or increasing the number of prescriptions) The sales business is a much more sobre affair these days.
Sales people are not ‘The lowest form of life” and doctors are not gullible fools who will have their heads turned by a pretty face or some branded golf balls. The truth is somewhat more complex I suspect.
I disagree with the comment that “reps are the lowest form of life on the planet.” There are good, ethical reps and poor, unethical ones just like there are in any business. We tend to paint groups with a broad brush – i.e. all politicians are corrupt – which means we fall prey to the very things Ariely writes about.
Like any profession, sales can be done honestly and ethically. Just because someone uses their understanding of psychology doesn’t make them unethical. The authors of “The Art of WOO” put said it well when they wrote, ““An earnest and sincere lover buys flowers and candy for the object of his affections. So does the cad who seeks to take advantage of another’s heart. But when the cad succeeds we don’t blame the flowers and candy. We rightly question his character.” It’s all about your intent and how you use your knowledge.
Last, while reps may overstate their importance to drug companies that doesn’t make salespeople worthless. If you think people will just logically look at facts, benefits, etc. and make rational choices then you miss the point of Ariely’s work. A sales person needs to understand how people think and make decisions and conform to that. I contend it can be done ethically and add value.
Brian
@the learning 2012
Obviously doctors are NOT going to admit that they are manipulated by sales reps. I would not say they are exaggerating their abilities as my aunt was a top salesperson and the stories she told me of the way shy cynically manipulated her customers shocked me (in those days I was shockable). She was not drunk when she told me this nor were there any other sales people there so there was no one to impress.
@ Brian. I’ve yet to come across an ethical sales rep in all the years I have been on this planet. In one way or another they have cynically and ruthlessly used underhand techniques to get a sale. Very often I was left with a bad taste in my mouth as I ended up buying something that I didn’t want.
Now that I have studied and still studying marketing I am aware of their techniques and tricks and now only buy if I feel the product is worthwhile.
To say that most sale reps are ethical must be the biggext oxymoron I’ve yet to hear!
The tragedy is as I’ve already indicated in my post above is that they don’t need these tactics, if they align the customer’s interests to what they have to offer they will still make a good living. However greed, desperation and competitiveness kicks in nearly every time.
As regards free samples, that can be a good thing and a free sample is a free sample, nothing else even if in certain cases the recipient feels obliged to reciprocate. But other freebies that are not in context such as golf, free dinners etc are just not on.
What I’m complaining about are the ruthless pressure that sales reps put on people and no amount of airbrushing can cover that up.
A thought provoking article on several fronts.
1) Caveat emptor is important to remember when “buying” anything; food, cars, houses, and yes, even personal health care. The most basic marketing techniques can be learned from the origins of the “patent medicine” (read “pharmaceutical”) business. Snake oil and Geritol were cleverly peddled to groups of people with techniques that are still effective and used today.
2) Intensive research on human behavior did not end when Ivan Pavlov left us. Rest assured that we are continually and effectively influenced (some would say manipulated) in the marketplace and the voting booth. Passing laws only leads to more insidious means, and education (although important) is only partly effective, in avoiding the influence of operant conditioning.
3) Operant conditioning, cognitive dissonance, the use of affirmations, slogans, and repetitive prayer, the placebo effect, and the power of positive thinking all have their roots in altering what we call “faith” or “belief”. These concepts have been used since the beginnings of society by folks who desire to influence others. From pharaohs to evangelists; from marketing reps to abusive spouses; from loving mothers to seminar speakers. All of us will be influenced by our environment in one way or another. When we are aware of the effectiveness of these concepts, we can use them to improve our personal experience; when not, well, that’s something to consider for a moment.
In the end, our experience is ultimately influenced by what we personally think, say, and do. And what we think, say, and do are influenced by the environment in which we choose to place ourselves.
Thank you Dan, for being a good provocateur.
Now, having “thought”, and “spoken”, I will begin my day of “doing”, and influencing the world around me! Peace brother!
I like your idea about making sure drug reps are 75 and “unattractive” even though I’m sure you were in jest there. I especially appreciate that you didn’t just assume that anyone over 75 was “automatically” unattractive. But, if we can treat that suggestion as serious for a minute, who would make the decision that someone is “unattractive” enough for the job? (I remember your wonderful “Hot or Not” experiment!)
I work in the field of EEO and workplace discrimination, and I believe that one of the largest categories of the those who are discriminated against are the unattractive — men and women both — but of course not hiring/promoting the “ugly” is perfectly legal. (Unless your unappealing-ness is related to a disability.)
Sometimes I say to my colleagues that we really need to get legal protection for the obese and unattractive but they wisely reply that “who is going to self-identify with that group?” We’ve also debated whether “ugly” should in and of itself be a disability (I think it should be and in fact it already is in the case of many disabiliites) but again my colleagues suggest that “ugly” should not be a disability because it is usually “fixable” (presumably through plastic surgery, if all else fails) and a true disability is not fixable. Interesting wrinkle there. I myself am not nearly as attractive as I would like to be, and I certainly weight more than the insurance companies would like — does that put me in the fat and ugly category? I live in Los Angeles, so yes, I definitely have a “disability” around here. But in a “normal” city, with a normal distirbution of attraction to unattractive people (say, Minneapolis) I feel relatively better off — thinner, younger and more stylish. Does this mean that anyone, no matter how unattractive, should just find a town where everyone else is worse of? A “race to the botton” of the ugly pile?
Aren’t all salespeople who are good at their jobs a little like this?
@Peg:
You speak of the physically unattractive. Don’t forget the repellent personalities, many of which seem to be fixable only in theory. Do we need to get legal protection for them, too?
@thelearninglog:
You seem to have missed the main point of Dan’s book and his work! Doctors who “claim to see straight through obvious sales tactics” are the most dangerous! We all fool ourselves, and we are all susceptible to bias and conflict of interest. It may well be that doctors recognize the sales pitch, and that’s a good thing, but once they claim to be immune because they see through it, that’s dangerous. They probably ARE being manipulated because they are overconfident in their immunity. The only solution is for doctors (and all of us) to recognize that conflicts of interest are significant and hard to ignore. If they LIKE the sales pitch experience, then it is working. A doctor who says that he sees through it and only makes perfectly rational decisions is the doctor we should doubt.
The whole point of Dan’s work is that we should admit to our irrationality. Then, maybe, we’ll have the best chance to manage it…
Agreed and this is a worthwhile debate, but again I am not sure that we are giving the medical profession or many highly trained, ethical and capable sales people enough credit here. My perspective is based mostly on European models in which purchases are heavily regulated and prescriptions influenced as much by central guidelines than individual doctors. There is much more going on between Medical Companies and Medical Practitioners than good looking sales reps, free gifts and dubious sales practice. The relationship between the two is multi faceted and there are links at every level of the supplying and purchasing organisations.
Being aware of our irrationality is vital and should be part of every doctor’s training. I think however that there is a risk of applying some outdated stereotypes here, which if you think about it is in and of itself pretty irrational.
Frank all I was saying was that there is a marked difference between what sales people say they do and what they actually do. This observation is based on years of coaching across a range of industries. The fact that many are outgoing by nature , competitive and love an audience needs to be factored in to any research. (I only mentioned alcohol because Dan mentioned that they got their study group “a bit sauced”
In fact most of the people I have worked with care most about giving great service, and creating happy customers and they behave accordingly when with their customers.
The interactions that takes place during a commercial transaction are complex and stereotyping sales people or their customers tends not to be that useful. It might be worth noting that many medical companies actually prefer to hire former hospital staff (theatre technicians, nurses etc) rather than pretty young things. This is because they are more likely to command the respect of doctors. They understand the issues the doctors face and they can talk the language of the medical profession. Is this further evidence of their intent to manipulate or just good business practice? When they hire graduates these companies are now more likely to look for strong scores in a relevant sciences and to test for their ability to understand discuss and present complex data rather than measuring their attractiveness.
The problem with stereotypes is that they date quickly the facts don’t often support the generalisation. It is very hard to recognise the sales hacks of old in the industry today.
By the way we could be having the same conversation about Financial Products, Advertising, Software in fact just about any industry.
Let’s not cloud the issue, shall we?
The main “transaction” being discussed here is the prescribing of one medication instead of another–hardly an event a doctor would obsess over, really, or even think much about. Writing prescriptions is a small event that comes at the end of other events that engage more of a doctor’s attention. Plus, doctors write prescriptions frequently throughout the day, and the repetition makes the act common (“should I have the vindaloo for lunch, or the marsala?”), not momentous (“Should I buy a Subaru, or a Dodge?”)–precisely the kind of situation that rewards subtlety.
By the way, it doesn’t matter whether or not the salespeople themselves are ethical, nor does it matter that they believe in what they’re doing (which may be more cognitive dissonance, or it may be something else that is equally questionable–for example, a couple of years ago, some pharmacists were refusing to fill prescriptions of birth control, no doubt because they believed in what they were doing).
What they do–the actions required by that line of work–is inethical.
I agree Pharamacists who refuse any legally available treatment (presumably on faith or moral grounds) are acting in an inethical manner.) I’m just not sure what that has to do with the role of sales people.
So lets not cloud the issue Sales people try their best (mostly honestly because to do otherwise usually screws up repeat business) to make a sale and purchasers apply their best judgement to making a good decision. (they can and do say no at times.) Buyers always have a choice and their decision is driven by many factors the sales person is just one of those factors.There are good and bad sales people just like there are good and bad Lawyers Doctors and Accountants. Stereotyping of any profession is is unhelpful and irrational.
.
While entertaining, your observations are not surprising. I’m in the professional engineering services’ business and such personal relationship exploitation (or personal “influence” depending on the perspective) is what all professional sales experts strive for. Your observations reinforce society’s growing skepticism about veracity of all paid advertisements. Keep up the good work!
Wise words Michael. I would also add that we allow ourselves to be influenced by the environment (in this case sales resp) and we should assume responsibility for this.
However we still need legislation to protect us from the direct effects of unethical sales people (those that buy from reps) and the indirect effects (when we are affected by those that buy from reps). This is especially pertinent as regards this article because as a patient I want to be protected from unwise purchases by doctors and buyers on behalf of the health service.
Hence the need for legislation to outlaw any inducements that are not directly concerned with the product.
Guy, I wish it were true that most salespersons were ethical. However I’ve yet to find that rep who only concentrates on features and benefits without any of the underhand tactics that all or most of us are sadly familiar with. I’m not talking about the very pubic and sensationalist cases such as the Mortgage Protection Insurance scandal, I’m talking about the grubby everyday activities of salesmen who try and bludgeon people into a purchase.
Recently I got someone to quote some blinds for me. I specifically told the company AND the rep when he arrived that I did not appreciate hard sell tactics and that I would contact him when I was ready to buy. Despite this and despite the “no obligation to buy” assurance from the company this man tried to pressure me into a sale. If I was someone less assertive I would have crumbled. It’s this type of common scandalous behaviour of reps that has to be stopped.
It really is time that sales reps put their house in order or have it done for them by the government. This is the issue we need to focus on instead of being defensive about these people.
Well, I agree. Sorta. Why should the rep be over 75 AND unattractive? Is everybody over 75 unattractive??? I don’t think so. I’m 81 and yes, got a few wrinkles, but not a lot…even my kids say so. I’m still in working full time, physically very active, and enjoying the heck out of life. And I’m NOT unattractive!! Dan…you need to take a second look at that statement, and get to know some older people!!!
One of my former business partners taught me a most valuable lesson in life.
The number one job of a salesman is “To separate you from your money, period” That people is their job.
Take some time and think about it.
On guard!
Very interesting report. Good thing that sometimes, what a rep is selling really works.
It’s always best to observe reps in their natural habitat. Read ” Basics of Sales Rep Watching”: http://pharmamkting.blogspot.com/2007/03/basics-of-sales-rep-watching.html
Dan,
Two points. The “stories” by the reps may fall into the same basket as the docs presentation. Once said…believed.
As for 75 year old reps….they have even more stories…and probably are more prone to believing them. I speak from experience. “With our thoughts we create the world…”
My father was a doc. You would not BELIEVE the amount of free stuff we got from drug reps over the years. Baseball tickets, sailboat trips, fancy parties… My father claimed to not be influenced by all this, but hey, he eventually ditched us all for a drug rep with whom he’d been cheating on my mom. Nope, no influence at all…
שלום לך,
אשמח להפתיע אותך ולספר שבחברת התרופות בה אני עובדת יש תועמלנים על סף פרישה לגימלאות והם מביאים לתוצאות טובות לא פחות מצעירים.לפני מספר שנים גם קלטנו תועמלנית חדשה לחברה(עם ניסיון קודם)שהייתה אז בת 63 היא עשתה עבודה מעולה
בגיל 71 היא פרשה מהתפקיד מרצונה ובגלל קושי פיסי
למה להשמיץ???
I am an employee in a large medical practice that employs approximately 45-50 employees. The doctors I work for will not even entertain the notion of seeing a drug rep unless they provide lunch for the entire practice. Out of a typical five day work week, we usually have no less than three lunches a week, but usually there is a lunch provided every single day. And I’m not talking about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches either. Quite often we get beautifully catered meals from high end catering establishments that includes gourmet dining. We get full lunches with elaborate menus from soup to nuts, including desserts and beverages. The whole 9 yards. This of course includes plastic utensils, napkins, paper plates and cups, etc.
By the time it is all added up, I’m sure the price tag for these noontime extravaganzas is well into the thousands of dollars when you consider the fact that each rep is doing this five days a week. Every time I eat the food I ponder over the fact that this is why pharmaceutical drugs are so incredibly expensive. The entire population is paying for these free lunches. PLUS, it isn’t doing my waistline any good either.
I don’t know when it became necessary for drug companies to provide this kind of ridiculous form of bribery to use their products, but it seems to me that if the drug they manufacture is a good one and works well for patients, they would not need to resort to bribery to put it across.
I am probably being naive here. I know that drugs are a huge business and represent millions of dollars to the drug companies. They probably look at it as a mere drop in the bucket to pay for these lunches in order to bring in gigantic dollars in drug sales. I just cannot help but wonder if prices of medication would decrease significantly if these lunches were outlawed.
Robin Walters —
As a former pharmaceutical representative, I can attest that the lunches are, as you assert, a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to the costs of medications. It’s interesting–and telling–that the doctors in your practice are a big part of the problem when it comes to the marketing costs (e.g., expensive lunches, etc.).
In actuality, it’s not the lunches and other promotional costs that drive drug prices through the roof. Instead, prices are governed by the costs involved in developing the drugs, testing them, getting regulatory approval, and then manufacturing, packaging, and delivering the actual products.
According to Forbes, “The average drug developed by a major pharmaceutical company costs at least $4 billion, and it can be as much as $11 billion.” (Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/02/10/the-truly-staggering-cost-of-inventing-new-drugs/)
The pharmaceutical business is risky and expensive. The lunches, pens, and pads add very little to the cost.
Is this legal to have lunch brought in everyday. We are told as employees, this is one of our company benefits and that we should be thankful that we do not have to go out for lunch.
Also, the patients are being asked to pay a $35 annual admin fee to give the patients the free samples and other services I feel should be included in a job description already in a doctors office.
This line of logic is very common, but actually erroneous. Marketing expenditures do not increase drug prices because their primary purpose is to increase prescriber awareness of new products. All prescription drugs are sold on a time-table, so that manufacturers only have a set period of time (really an uncertain period due to generic lawsuits nullifying patent protection in legal proceedings) in which to recoup the costs of development for the drug in question, as well as a certain share of their unsuccessful ventures and make whatever profit they are going to make.
After that period is over, the drug loses patent protection and virtually all sales move to generic companies. This time table is the reason why drug companies cannot afford to allow gradual diffusion of their products throughout the marketplace based on word-of-mouth about their merits. With current tactics, it still often takes 3 or more years for drugs to achieve even moderate penetrance into the market and occasionally drugs do lose patent protection in such a short period, often on technicalities.
If we forbade marketing, this process could easily take 20 years or more (look at the diffusion times for psychotherapy paradigms for an example or statistical methods during most of the 20th century for another). If we slowed drug diffusion to such slow rates by outlawing marketing, not only would we be causing millions of unnecessary deaths, but we would cause all of the existing pharmaceutical companies to collapse under their own R&D costs. We would either have to extend patent lives to multiple times their current lengths or medicine would stagnate as a profession.
Now, most people will retort that physicians also get information from medical journals, except they really don’t. Medical journals are for the academics, they aren’t for the practitioners. The practitioners quite simply do not have time to read even a fraction of the relevant material from medical journals.
What about other forms of marketing? Not as helpful.
While drug reps are only one form of marketing, they are among the most effective, not because they are more persuasive than other forms, but because they are more convenient than other forms. The drug rep comes to the doctors office and provides the doctor with FDA approved information, in an encounter whose parameters are regulated by the FDA.
While there is a decided lack of information available about the relative importance of information vs. persuasion in causing prescribing changes, a recent study by Chressanthis et al. (2012) found that individuals who restricted access to drug reps had slower uptake of a first in class medication and took longer to change their prescribing in response to a black box warning than providers with greater access to drug reps. This suggests that an important part of any prescribing change occurring as a result of physician interactions with drug reps results from the information transferred, rather than persuasion, per se.
So, why how does this transfer into lower drug costs? Well, it is quite simple really; the faster doctors react to the entry of a medication into the market (diffusion rate), the more of that medication is sold. The more of that medication is sold within the patent window, the less the company has to charge for it to recoup its R&D costs.
Detailing increases physician awareness of new medications at some cost X, that awareness leads to a certain number of additional new prescriptions Y at cost Z, as long as the revenue from Y*Z exceeds the cost of X + the unit cost of production for Y prescriptions worth of the drug (usually low), then detailing has increased profits within the patent protection window, meaning that the company does not need to charge as much for each individual dose. We know that the revenue generated by additional prescriptions stimulated by detailing will generally exceed its costs, because companies monitor these statistics and will reduce or eliminate detailing services for drugs when they no longer return a profit. It is this very profit that drives down drug prices.
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